I've heard that
founder of MakerDAO is not strictly against KYC. I have a message to whole community and specifically to a founder of MakerDAO Rune Christensen. I will explain using concrete examples why having KYC in MakerDAO is a grave mistake and it will lead to MakerDAO fork.
Many people in the first world never actually understand why
financial privacy and
financial inclusion is important. Even people (in the first world) who seemingly supportive of such ideas are not able to provide any concrete examples of why it's actually important.
Unfortunately, I was born in a
"wrong" country (Uzbekistan) and I experienced first hand what financial exclusion actually means. I know first hand that annoying feeling when you read polite, boilerplate rejection letter from financial institution based in first world. So I had to become practical libertarian. I'm going to give you
concrete examples of financial discrimination against me. Then I'm going to explain fundamental reasons why it happens. And finally, I'm going to explain my
vision for DAI.
Back in 2005, I lived in Uzbekistan. I had an idea to invest in US stocks. I was very naive and I didn't know anything about investing, compliance, bank transfers, KYC etc. All I knew is nice long term charts of US stocks and what P/E means. I didn't contact any US brokerage but I checked information about account opening and how to transfer money there. I approached local bank in Uzbekistan and asked how to transfer money to Bank of New York. Banker's face was like - WOW, WTF?!?! They asked me to go to private room to talk with senior manager. Senior manager of local bank in Uzbekistan asked me why I wanted to transfer money to US. They told me that it's absolutely impossible to transfer money to US/EU and pretty much anywhere. I approached nearly every local bank in the town and they told me the same.
In 2012, I already lived in Moscow and acquired Russian citizenship. I got back to my old idea - investing in US stocks. I called to many US brokerages and all of them politely rejected me. Usually when I called I asked them if I can open an account with them. They told me to hold on line. After long pause, I was able to speak with "senior" support who politely explain me that Russia in their list of restricted countries and they can't open an account for me. Finally, I was able to open an account with OptionsXpress. Next challenge was to convince local Russian bank to transfer money to US. Back then in 2012, I was able to get permission to do so. So you might say - is this happy end?
Fast forwarding US brokerage story to 2017, OptionsXpress was acquired by Charles Schwab. I was notified that my OptionsXpress account will be migrated to Charles Schwab platform. In 2017, I already lived in the Netherlands (but still having Russian citizenship). I wasn't happy with my stupid job in the Netherlands. I called Charles Schwab and asked if I quit my job in the Netherlands and have to return to Russia, what will happen with my account. Schwab told me that they will restrict my account, so I can't do anything except closing my account. So even if I was long term customer of OptionsXpress, Charles Schwab is not fully okay with me.
Going back to 2013, I still lived in Russia. I had another idea. What if I quit my job and build some SAAS platform (or whatever) and sell my stuff to US customers. So I need some website which accept US credit cards. I contacted my Russian bank (who previously allowed me to transfer money to OptionsXpress) about steps to make in order to accept US credit cards in Russia. I've been told explicitly in email that they won't allow me to accept US credit cards under any circumstances.
Back then I still believed in "the free west". So I thought - no problem, I will just open bank account abroad and do all operations from my foreign account. I planned vacation in Hong Kong. And Hong Kong is freest economy in the world. Looks like it's right place to open bank account. I contacted HSBC Hong Kong via email. Their general support assured me that I can open bank account with them if I'm foreigner. I flew to Hong Kong for vacation and visited HSBC branch. Of course, they rejected me. But they recommended me to visit last floor in their HQ building, they told me that another HSBC branch specializes on opening bank accounts for foreigners. I went there and they said minimum amount to open bank account is 10 mil HKD (1.27 mil USD). Later I learned that it's called private banking.
When I relocated to the Netherlands, I asked ABN Amro staff - what's happen with my bank account if I quit/lose my job in the Netherlands and have to return back to Russia. I've been told that I can't have my dutch bank account if I go back to Russia even if I already used their bank for 2+ years.
I still had idea that I would like to quit my job and do something for myself. The problem is that I'm Russian citizen and I don't have any residency which is independent from my employment. So if I quit my job in the Netherlands, I have to return back to Russia. I wanted to see how I would get payments from US/EU customers. I found Stripe Atlas, it's so exciting, they help you to incorporate in US, and even help with banking, all process of receiving credit card payments is very smooth. But as usual in my case, there is a catch - Russia in their list of restricted countries.
Speaking of centralized compliance-friendly (e.g. KYC) crypto exchanges. This year I live and work in Hong Kong. Earlier this year, I thought it would be nice to have an account at local crypto exchange in Hong Kong so I can quickly transfer money from my bank account in Hong Kong to crypto exchange using FPS (local payment system for fast bank transfers). What could go wrong? After all Hong Kong is freest economy in the world, right? I submitted KYC documents to crypto exchange called Weever including copy of my Hong Kong ID as they requested. They very quickly responded that they need copy of my passport as well. I submitted copy of my Russian passport. This time they got silent. After a few days, they sent me email saying that Russia is on the US Office of Foreign Assets Control sanction list, so they just require me to fill a form about source of the funds. I told them that the source of my funds is salary, my Hong Kong bank can confirm that along with my employment contract. They got very silent after I sent them a filled form. After a week of silence I asked them - when my account get approved? They said that their compliance office will review my application soon. And they got very silent again. I waited for two or three weeks. Then I asked them again. And I immediately got email with title - Rejection for Weever Account Opening. And text of email was:
We are sorry to inform you that Weever may not be able to accept your account opening application at this stage.
Exactly the same situation I had with one crypto exchange in Europe back in 2017. Luckily I have accounts at other crypto exchanges including Gemini, one of most compliance obsessed exchange in the world. Although I don't keep my money there because I can't trust them, who knows what might come into head of their compliance officer one sunny day.
By the way, I'm living and working outside of Russia for quite a few years. The situation with crypto exchanges is much worse for those who still living in Russia.
I give you a few other examples of financial discrimination is not related to troubles with my Russian citizenship.
Back in 2018, I still lived in the Netherlands. I logged in into my brokerage account just to buy US ETFs as I always do - SPY and QQQ. I placed my order and it failed to fill. I thought it's just a technical problem with my brokerage account. After a few failed attempts to send buy orders for SPY and QQQ, I contacted their support. What they told me was shocking and completely unexpected. They said I'm not permitted to buy US ETFs anymore as EU resident because EU passed a law to protect retail investors. So as a EU resident I'm allowed to be exposed to more risk by buying individual US stocks but I'm not allowed to reduce my risk by buying SPY because ... EU wants to protect me. I felt final result of new law. By the way, on paper their law looks fine.
And the final example. It's a known fact that US public market become less attractive in recent decades. Due to heavy regulatory burden companies prefer to go public very late. So if successful unicorn startup grows from its inception/genesis to late adoption, company's valuation would be 3-5 orders of orders of magnitude. For example, if valuation of successful company at inception is 1 Mil USD, then at its very latest stage it's valuation would be 10 Bil USD. So we have 10'000 times of growth. In the best case scenario, company would go public at 1 Bil USD 5-10 years before reaching its peak 10 Bil USD. So investors in private equity could enjoy 1000 fold growth and just leave for public only last 10 fold growth stretched in time. In the worst case scenario, company would go public at 10 Bil USD, i.e. at its historical peak. But there are well known platforms to buy shares of private companies, one of such platforms is Forge Global. You can buy shares of almost all blue chip startups. You can even invest in SpaceX! But as always, there is a catch - US government wants to protect not just US citizens but all people in the world (sounds ridiculous, right?). US law requires you to have 1 Mil USD net worth or 200'000 USD annual income if you want to buy shares of non-public company. So if you are high-net worth individual you can be called "accredited investor". Funny thing is that the law intends to protect US citizens but even if you are not US citizen and never even lived in US, this law is still applies to you in practice. So if you are "poor loser", platforms like Forge Global will reject you.
So high-net worth individuals have access and opportunity to Bitcoin-style multi-magnitude growth every 5-10 years. Contrary to private equity markets, US public markets is low risk/low return type of market. If you have small amount of capital, it's just glorified way to protect yourself from inflation plus some little return on top. It's not bad, US public market is a still great way to store your wealth. But I'm deeply convinced that for small capital you must seek fundamentally different type of market - high risk/high return. It's just historical luck that Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc were available for general public from day one. But in reality, viral/exponential growth is happening quite often. It's just you don't have access to such type of markets due to regulatory reasons.
I intentionally described these examples of financial discrimination in full details as I experienced them because I do feel that vast majority of people in the first world honestly think that current financial system works just fine and only criminals and terrorists are banned. In reality that's not true at all.
99.999% of innocent people are completely cut off from modern financial system in the name of fighting against money laundering.
Here is
a big picture why it's happening. There are rich countries (so called western world) and poor countries (so called third world). Financial wall is carefully built by two sides. Authoritarian leaders of poor countries almost always want full control over their population, they don't like market economy, and since market forces don't value their crappy legal system (because it works only for close friends of authoritarian leader) they must implement strict capital control. Otherwise, all capital will run away from their country because nobody really respects their crappy legal system. It only has value under heavy gun of government. Only friends of authoritarian leader can move their money out of country but not you.
Leaders of rich countries want to protect their economy from "dirty money" coming from third world. Since citizens of poor countries never vote for leaders of rich countries nobody really cares if rich country just ban everyone from poor country. It's the most
lazy way to fight against money laundering - simply ban everyone from certain country.
Actually if you look deeper you will see that rich countries very rarely directly ban ordinary people from third world. Usually, there is no such law which doesn't allow me to open bank account somewhere in Europe as non-EU resident. What's really happens is that US/EU government implement very harsh penalties for financial institutions if anything ever goes wrong.
So what's actually happens is that financial institutions (banks, brokerages etc) do
de-risking. This is the most important word you must know about traditional financial system!
So if you have wrong passport, financial institution (for example) bank from rich country just doesn't want to take any risks dealing with you even if you are willing to provide full documentation about your finances. It's well known fact that banks in Hong Kong, Europe, US like to unexpectedly shutdown accounts of thousands innocent businesses due to
de-risking.
So it's actually
de-risking is the real reason why I was rejected so many times by financial institutions in the first world!!! It's
de-risking actually responsible for
banning 99.999% of innocent people. So governments of rich democratic countries formally have clean hands because they are not banning ordinary people from third world directly. All dirty job is done by financial institutions but governments are well aware of that, it's just more convenient way to discriminate. And nobody actually cares! Ordinary citizens in rich countries are never exposed to such problems and they really don't care about people in third world, after all they are not citizens of US/EU/UK/CH/CA/HK/SG/JP/AU/NZ.
And now are you ready for the most hilarious part? If you are big corrupt bureaucrat from Russia you are actually welcome by the first world financial institutions! All Russian's junta keep their stolen money all across Europe and even in US. You might wonder how this is possible if the western financial system is so aggressive in
de-risking.
Here is a simple equation which financial institution should solve when they decide whether to open an account for you or not:
Y - R = net profit Where:
Y - how much profit they can make with
you;
R - how much regulatory
risk they take while working with you;
That's it! It's very simple equation. So if you are really big junta member from Russia you are actually welcome according to this equation. Banks have special name for serving (ultra) high-net worth individuals, it's called
private banking. It's has nothing to do with the fact that bank is private. It's just fancy name for banking for rich.
So what's usually happen in real world. Some Estonian or Danish bank got caught with large scale money laundering from Russia. European leaders are ashamed in front of their voters. They implement new super harsh law against money laundering to keep their voters happy. Voters are ordinary people, they don't care about details of new regulations. So banks get scared and abruptly shutdown ALL accounts of Russian customers. And European voters are happy.
Modern money laundering laws are like shooting mouse in your house using bazooka! It's very efficient to kill mouse, right?
Now imagine world without financial borders. It's hard to do so because we are all get so used to current status quo of traditional financial system. But with additional effort you can start asking questions - if Internet economy is so global and it doesn't really matter where HQ of startup is located, why they are all concentrated in just a few tiny places like Silicon Valley and ... well, that's mostly it if you count the biggest unicorns!
Another question would be - why so many talented russian, indian, chinese programmers just go to the same places like San Francisco, London and make super rich companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple to get even richer? If all you need is laptop and access to internet, why you don't see any trade happening between first and third world?
Well actually there is a trade between first and third world but it's not exactly what I want to see. Usually third world countries sell their natural resources through giant corporations to the first world.
So it's possible to get access to the first world market from third world but this access usually granted only to big and established companies (and usually it means not innovative).
Unicorns are created through massive parallel experiment. Every week bunch of new startups are created in Silicon Valley. Thousands and thousands startups are created in Silicon Valley with almost instant access to global market. Just by law of large numbers you have a very few of them who later become unicorns and dominate the world.
But if you have wrong passport and you are located in "wrong" country where every attempt to access global market is very costly, then you most likely not to start innovative startup in the first place. In the best case scenario, you just create either local business or just local copy-paste startup (copied from the west) oriented on (relatively small) domestic market. Obviously in such setup it's predictable that places like Silicon Valley will have giant advantage and as a result all unicorns get concentrated in just a few tiny places.
In the world without financial barriers there will be much smaller gap between rich and poor countries. With low barrier of entry, it won't be a game when winner takes all.
Whole architecture of
decentralized cryptocurrencies is intended to remove middle man and make transactions
permissionless. Governments are inherently opposite to that, they are
centralized and
permissioned. Therefore, decentralized cryptocurrencies are fundamentally incompatible with traditional financial system which is full of middle mans and regulations (i.e. permissions).
Real value of crypto are coming from third world, not the first world. People are buying crypto in rich countries just want to invest. Their financial system and their fiat money are more or less already working for them. So there is no immediate urgency to get rid of fiat money in the first world. So the first world citizens buying crypto on centralized KYCd exchanges are essentially making side bet on the success of crypto in third world.
Real and natural environment of cryptocurrencies is actually dark OTC market in places like Venezuela and China. But cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum have a big limitation to wide adoption in third world -
high volatility. So the real target audience is oppressed (both by their own government and by first world governments) ordinary citizens of third world countries yet they are least who can afford to take burden of high volatility.
Right now, Tether is a big thing for dark markets across the world (by the way, dark market doesn't automatically imply bad!). But Tether soon or later be smashed by US/EU regulators.
The only real and working permissionless stable cryptocurrency (avoiding hyped word - stablecoin) is
DAI. DAI is the currency for post-Tether world
to lead dark OTC market around the world and subvert fiat currencies of oppressive third world governments.
Once DAI become de-facto widespread currency in shadow economy in all of third world, then it will be accepted (after many huge push backs from governments) as a new reality. I'm talking about 10-20+ years time horizon.
But if MakerDAO chooses the route of being compliance friendly then DAI will lose its real target audience (i.e. third world).
I can not imagine US/EU calmly tolerate someone buying US stocks and using as a collateral to issue another security (i.e. DAI) which is going to be traded somewhere in Venezuela! You can not be compliance friendly and serve people in Venezuela. Facebook's Libra was stupidest thing I've seen. It's extremely stupid to ask permission from the first world regulators to serve third world and create borderless economy. Another stupid thing is to please third world governments as well. For example, Libra (if ever run) will not serve Indian, Chinese, Venezuelan people. Who is then going to use stupid Libra? Hipsters in Silicon Valley? Why? US dollars are good enough already.
boldninja @brendaneich hi Brendan welcome to Ark slack - Brendan is the creator of JavaScript, co-founder of Mozilla / Firefox & Brave Software and today we'll host AMA with him regarding his upcoming project
http://basicattentiontoken.org/ BasicAttentionToken
moobox i think i'm gonna forget about bitbay and keep it
dr10 hi brendan
brendaneich hi
dr10 nice to have you here :smile:
boldninja hi Brendan - thanks for joining us today
brendaneich happy to be here @boldninja
tranzer hi @brendaneich , I have a question regarding BAT. Will you have limited number of tokens or will you have inflation? When do you plan to start ICO? (edited)
michaelthecryptoguy Hello Brendan. Nice to have you in the ark community slack channel
mward Hello
moobox the ironies of old age. you can afford the sports car you dreamed of as a kid, but your back hurts too much to sit in it.
dr10 Will Mozilla- and Chrome-Plugins be usuable for Brave browser? Will Brave Browser be able to sync bookmarks?
mike hi brendan
cannabanana is the BAT token just an ETH asset or will it be a new blockchain technology? if the first, why ETH instead of your own block chain? :smile: (edited)
brendaneich @dr10 two questions, first one first
jonathansampson @dr10 Chrome extensions are supported
today, I wrote a short walkthrough on how we (I'm an engineer on Brave) test extensions before adopting for official support.
https://blog.brave.com/loading-chrome-extensions-in-brave/ Happy to answer any questions you may have. (edited)
brendaneich 1. Brave on laptop/desktop uses chromium and we support chromium extensions, but curate them into our own S3 from the Chrome Web Store ah, there is @jonathansampson on to second q
jakethepanda @brendaneich How will Brave detect bots designed to give fake attention? (edited)
brendaneich 2. Brave's client-encrypted sync is in beta now, if you use iOS i can connect you with the devs to get a beta build. it works between laptop/desktop systems already, and is coming up in Android too @cannabanana BAT is an ERC20 token on Ethereum. we need smart contracts and benefit from multiple token launches proving the tech and approach no desire to do our own blockchain
mward The BAT wallet will be implemented in Brave browser as a plug-in?
brendaneich we are pragmatists, use bitcoin already in Brave for auto-microdonations
cannabanana will you only accept ethereum for the ICO or will you also be accepting bitcoin?
brendaneich @jakethepanda please see
https://www.reddit.com/BATProject/comments/61kw7f/question/dfxkuus/ reddit Question •
BATProject We have answers, you may not be surprised by them: 1. Rate-limiting. Bots can fake human ad viewing (see
https://whiteops.com/methbot), but we'll... @mward no, deeper integration than an extension (plugin still is overloaded for old-style stuff like Flash) can have
brendaneich @cannabanana ETH only, as BAT is an ERC20 token -- we are not launching a new exchange or anything, so other currencies have to be exchanged to buy BAT
boldninja When do you plan to start your initial token offer, will there be any hard cap?
jakethepanda @brendaneich Is this right? Users opt into the BAT system and get paid for their attention. Advertisers pay for ads with BAT. Through a smart contract, BAT is unlocked as users give the ad attention. The unlocked BAT is split up between users, Brave, and publishers.
brendaneich @mward we have BitGo provided bitcoin wallet integration in Brave already, ofc the wallet is on the blockchain not in Brave but the deeper integration is for the private, "chartbeats in your browser" auto-microdonation analytics, and the anonize.org-based ZKP protocol over VPN to communicate your donations w/o loss of anonymity or fingerprinting via the list of your top sites
@jakethepanda that is the goal but doing it with real-time BAT flow is in the future, the "Apollo" (or Mars mission) space program phase; we're in "Mercury Redstone" rn, monkeys in buckets on parabolic paths
nt91 When is ico
brendaneich @boldninja @nt91 we haven't announced the date but will very (very) soon, just getting logistics and final audits done
@boldninja cap is $15M of ETH so we have to pin the ratio close to launch given recent vol.
dr10 How will you get Brave Browser to the masses? Any marketing campaign you like to sum up? Any bigger announcement or plan?
jakethepanda How is the split determined between users, publishers and Brave?
brendaneich @dr10 we are growing, mostly organically right now, under 1M MAU but we will (in best case of crowdsale) spend more to growth-hack, which is advertising + funnel analytics / retention analysis loop
tranzer @brendaneich don't know if you have been following tokencard ICO, but they had kind of a fuckup with their smart contract, also they didn't give their address of contract literally before it started. How will you go about this? Will smart contract, address be known beforehand?
brendaneich an important point: if we hit cap we will found a trade group for attention apps and get other apps on board to use BAT and help us get to scale faster with buy side of ad-tech system, also with bigger donor cohorts via membership in trade association
nt91 Once launched how quickly isit likely to join the exchange
brendaneich @tranzer we followed that closely, it was Not Good. we are using a super-simple contract based on FirstBlood, Golem, StandardToken
mward How will you make the crowdsale? Like Gnosis? (Dutch action) The BAT token wil have fixed price at the time of ico?
brendaneich @nt91 can't say, not our biz and we are building the "in game" economics first so exchanges can come any time
brendaneich @mward fixed ratio of BAT for ETH
fixcrypt @brendaneich will all the tx recorded on eth blockchain, or will you manage some sort of payment channels?
dr10 Do you plan to integrate decentralized VPN or Tor-Like stuff? Your browser is really fast, will these things slow it down? Or didnt plan any of this?
brendaneich @fixcrypt all on chain, no preselling, no funny stuff -- we believe in simplicity first, given all the experience in this space
mike would you be interested in using a different blockchain to eliminate all the overhead of paying such a huge network of computers on ethereum to each process every single contract on each computer? (edited)
cannabanana I hope you guys will reconsider accepting more than just eth for the ICO. I have not been able to invest in any of the past like 5 good ones. There's a whole segment of people who wont touch ETH.
tranzer @brendaneich ok I know this is not about BAT, but did you know that Ark is built in JavaScript :smile: ?
fixcrypt @brendaneich how many tx are we talking about? 1 each time there is a basic attention detected? (edited)
brendaneich @dr10 we are going to do Tor private tabs, see
https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/wiki/Brave-Tor-Support GitHub brave/browser-laptop browser-laptop - Brave browser for Desktop and Laptop computers running Windows, OSX, and Linux
we will make it possible to pick a region for exit node from Tor relay network -- so you can unlock region-locked videos, e.g.
yes, Tor slows things down and Tor private tabs turn on fingerprinting protection, turn off most JS, etc. -- that's a good thing
michaelthecryptoguy Very Nice!!
brendaneich @mike i'm a pragmatist and will use whatever blockchain is big enough, robust enough, has functionality we need (smart contracts, ZKP anonymity coming along, etc.). Zcash adding token support this fall, i hear. we don't multiply risk by jumping on bandwagons whose wheels are still off :wink:. we do not try 10 hard things at once -- space program from monkey in can to moon
@cannabanana we are launching an ERC20 token on Ethereum, you buy with ETH, we are not an exchange
the few launches whose contracts hardcoded a bitcoin address were launching exchange-like projects, so could take the risk
we are not doing that
separate concerns
@tranzer i heard :wink:
twitchard What do you think the adoption function for BAT looks like. Do you think there's a critical mass at which adoption will drastically speed up? Or do you think it is more gradual
brendaneich @fixcrypt no, in early phases of BAT program we cannot put each attention event on chain
obv. the chain is too costly, also: not anonymous! big tracking prob
fixcrypt agree
brendaneich we build in hybrid fashion
Brave already has anonize.org v2 ZKP integrated
requires centralized but open source accounting server
fixcrypt ah yes make sense
brendaneich we'd like someone else to run that (escrow, also could add exchange to fiat as publishers like being paid in fiat)
dr10 Can I visit websites, that block Users, that use addblock? Is there a way to work around this? Currently I use brave browser and some pages block me, because of using addblock. What is your solution to this or do you think these website will change their behaviour?
brendaneich if we can do server to client remote attestation (see
https://www.npmjs.com/package/secureworker) we will npm secureworker Run JavaScript inside an Intel SGX enclave
jonathansampson @dr10 That's a bug; let us know which sites are detecting Brave as an ad-blocker, and we'll file Issues on GitHub. We're constantly making improvements in this space, and recalibrating as necessary :slightly_smiling_face:
brendaneich eventually it should all decentralize but that requires the blockchain (
a blockchain; could be red-headed lovechild of Ethereum and Zcash lol) to do anonymity and microtransactions both very well
fixcrypt so payment are done on blockchain, but it basically validates on a daily basis a centralised payment channel between all stakeholders
mike like the chart on ad percentages of sites in the whitepaper. I've noticed for a long time the mainstream news sites are the worst to go to, a literal assault on the browser visiting them - have avoided going to them as a result, think you're on to something to mitigate this.
dr10 I visited a german boulevard magazine
www.bild.de brendaneich bild.de makes my eyes bleed
dr10 so normally this wouldnt be the case?
yeah its just an example lol
because I know they block addblock people
jonathansampson @dr10 I'll file an issue immediately!
brendaneich @dr10 we get around forbes, wired, latimes, many other anti-adblockers
michaelthecryptoguy Will these be done on a multi - channel?
brendaneich publishers who put up such user-hostile dialogs tend to lose alexa/comscore share
gotta catch up on the Qs
@fixcrypt next
tell me if i missed you
fixcrypt no pb
tranzer Haven't used Brave yet, might try after today, but is it same memory hungry as Chrome is?
twitchard :wave:
1nfinite concerning the ICO - will there only be one? meaning all 700m coins will be distributed through this initial $15m ICO (meaning $1 will net you about 46BAT)? sorry if I'm misunderstanding some of the info you've put out in asking this
dr10 What if I want to support Live-Streams (twitch) or youtube videos by watching their ad (which is not part of the brave system) Can I still turn off this mechanism?
brendaneich @fixcrypt yes, we buffer automicrodonations over 30 days of your uptime (varies by user; if you go on vacation those days don't count) and send Anonize ZKP votes (one per voting session, all over VPN) to our accounting server, along with the total bitcoin per 30 days you pledged. this goes into settlement wallet, the votes go into accounting db
we want to decentralize this as noted, just repeating in case anyone missed
fixcrypt decentralize this will be hard, maybe when segwit is enabled on bitcoin, but ETH, i have no idea (edited)
brendaneich @michaelthecryptoguy sorry, what did you mean by multi-channel?
jonathansampson @dr10 You can track the bild.de issue here:
https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/6758 (Thank you again for reporting) (edited)
fixcrypt i think decentralizing everything is not always the best solution
brendaneich @tranzer we use less memory than chrome by virtue of ad and tracker blocking but we have some bugs to fix pre-1.0 (which i think will be in june) -- i use brave on all OSes, also use a bit of other browsers to keep up with joneses but i've cut back and tried to live in brave. on macOS i am still bugged by mem use (i'm a tab hoarder) and some lag bugs but we are on them -- will fix this month!
michaelthecryptoguy one blockchain ledger with multiple transactions, instead of being signed one at a time (edited)
brendaneich @1nfinite yes, selling 700M, floating 300M on side for user growth pool (100M), trade association, team, and future reserve
1nfinite thanks!
tranzer so 70% to ICO and 30% for team / user growth? Sounds reasonable (more than gnosis :joy: )
moobox this is great to talk to brave devs - pls to make websites look like this:
http://i.imgur.com/00mQ8mc.png (173kB)
brendaneich @fixcrypt you could be right, centralization or let's say trusted third parties have existed since at least agriculture (10K years?) so we as pragmatists must consider some -- but we don't like "trust me" / "don't be evil", we prefer "trust Math" / "can't be evil"
michaelthecryptoguy then the last transaction is added to the blockchain
dafty what failsafes are planned to stop bots (eg, running selenium) from mocking a real human and gaining bat tokens? how do you know a user is actually a user?
jonathansampson @moobox We will support themes in a future release, as well as extensions to modify page presentation. If you have any favorites, please let us know :slightly_smiling_face:
moobox thank you sir
michaelthecryptoguy to improve the cost of using eth network
dr10 There are lot of small companies, Twitch/Youtube content creators which live by ads. These ads aren't yet part of the Brave-System. Will there be a smooth transition? Can I still turn off the brave-mechanism and watch these ordinairy ads, to support individuals or are they forced to switch over to Brave?
fixcrypt @brendaneich trust the code that can be hacked, or trust the people that can be evil… Make your choice. DAO vs Banks
brendaneich @michaelthecryptoguy yes, we must batch -- at first in-browser. auditable open source required, verified builds if OS/toolchain support them. there is a level of endpoint software trust in any attention ecosystem but part of the trade association idea is to standardize stuff, including ZKP and VPN rules for submitting the private ledger to the blockchain or equivalent, also auditing requirements to use BAT
cannabanana I trust bitcoin but I don't trust bitmain is not evil
brendaneich @moobox are you just asking for a dark theme? on our roadmap
moobox well this is a plugin for firefox that swaps out all website colors - nothing like it for chrome yet except an ugllly one
brendaneich @tranzer yeah, GNO didn't sell enough IMHO but i'm not on team so won't throw stones -- just sayin' as observer
mward Why only 15M$ max? Don't you think the ico will end very fast?
moobox i am just hoping maybe some person sees it and says "i want that too"
tranzer @brendaneich are you still active in JavaScript development? Could there be any kind of cooperation with Ark in the future (also asking main dev of Ark @fixcrypt ) ?
brendaneich @dafty did you see the reddit link above? besides real (costs money, boots on ground; we're evaluating Blockscore rn) KYC, we have rate limits in mind based on humans, and flow limits so a compromised real user or convincing fraudster can't get $MMs of BATs from friends and family and then pass KYC to send off to a mixer
cannabanana :trollbounce: not to mention two of us are in the bay area
brendaneich start with in-game economics, no exchanges
1nfinite any chance you'll incorporate certain requirements for investments above xx number of Eth for the crowdsale? to prevent 20 big players from buying up the whole thing?
axente How are you guys legally setup? Swiss foundation?
jonathansampson @moobox We have heard similar requests from other users, and are eagerly working towards a release that supports both theming of the browser, and styling of the content. Let us know if you have any other ideas/requests :slightly_smiling_face:
brendaneich add KYC on publishers getting donations (done in prototype form in Brave using bitcoin rn)
add KYC for users wanting to withdraw -- this also means rate/flow controls
fixcrypt @tranzer well the only point would be to use ark as the payment network, instead of ETH, i don’t see any other interaction. Also maybe make brave agnostic enough so people can choose their network payment
brendaneich but for many users the opt-in zero-knowledge ad revenue is not enough to withdraw and they'll donate it
you can net-zero your monthly spend: make ad rev on non-top-20 sites, donate to top 20
I should add we want to start with user-private ad channels, like WeChat
we won't put ads on publishers's slots without their consent and partnership
some will come fast but bigs will be slow
so we're looking for user private ads: in separate tab, wechat-like bot, fullscreen channel, etc.
these can pay most rev share to user
still rate limited, no couch potato as a service lol
dr10 what about the twitch/youtube question? How could this work out?
brendaneich @dr10 we've always had a design that denotes payee with URL including path to youtube/twitch account, not just domain name
but we start with domain name for beta/MVP
will get team on twitch/youtube in coming months, it's hot topic
everyone wants it, we're just busy (24 people now)
crowdsale will help
can hire more to parallelize a bit
dr10 so you are working on a solution to pay off individuals within the brave-system, right?
@ yt / twitch
brendaneich @mward we debated cap on basicattentiontoken.slack.com and consensus was to keep at $15M -- but a few still suggest raising or no cap, much concern about fast sell-out and whales buying too much
mward yes, that is my concern.
look at gnosis distribution..
brendaneich @tranzer yes, i'm on Ecma TC39 and still active / consulted
mward you need a lot of small investors, not whales
dr10 When you implement Tor-like stuff. Can I also Download stuff via ToVpn? just using the Tor-Tab to download
brendaneich @1nfinite we aren't going to change the contracts, in third audit currently. we can't really limit whales who have tools to buy from lots of addresses
@axente we are not swiss but looking at tax optimization structures pre-launch; brave is delaware (US) c corp; trade group would be 501c6, need to pass IRS muster so that is many months after launch
axente Oke thanks
1nfinite got it, thanks. So will there be a cap for how much can be donated per address?
brendaneich @fixcrypt code is hacked, security never done; no silver bullets. but people are easier to hack and hack themselves lol
dr10 Is the brave browser running in a sandbox like chrome?
dafty how are inappropriate ads handled on the network, is there some form of reputation system for advertisers?
brendaneich @mward GNO sold too little, cetaceans eat too much agreed. GNT sold more and we can't find on-chain huge buys
@dr10 use Tor private tab, yeah
jonathansampson @dr10 That is correct.
brendaneich btw does everyone know Brave supports magnet: and .torrent now via WebTorrent integration?
@dr10 yes, we use chromium with the same sandbox -- had to fork electron hard (twice) to do this, btw. Slack uses unsandboxed chromium renderer processes :disappointed:
tranzer I think I'm sold on brave today will definately try it out
jonathansampson @tranzer Awesome. Let us know if you have any feedback!
brendaneich @dafty we haven't taken any ads at all yet so start from clean slate. no exchanges, ads bearing malware get thru, also
https://whiteops.com/methbot fraud on sell side steals revenue by putting real ads into fake slots clicked by fake users whiteops.com Methbot | White Ops Digital Advertising Security. Enterprise Security Solutions. Bots are bad for business; we're bad for bots. (4kB)
our plan is to go direct to agencies who get ads from brands
our ads are opt in
no surprises for our users who want and expect baseline Brave to block
djselery @brendaneich what are your feelings about IPFS?
dr10 Will the Paying/receiving of tokens in the brave system be easy to understand for non-tech people? Is there some kind of tutorial or easy buttons or something like that? This is a total new environment for people. You have any plans for "educating" people or making it easy to use. Like a browser-integrated Balance? Easy overviews?
brendaneich if you opt in, you can start with light touch but to get BAT out you must KYC
@dr10 have you used Brave Payments (beta) yet? the support is built in
usable UX
tranzer will you need to do KYC also if you transfer to Brave and after that decide to put it out on exchange?
brendaneich we are moving (with new name, not "Payments") to second beta with Stripe as partner for users to fund automicrodonation wallet without seeing bitcoin
dr10 I have it installed and browse with it, but it is not taking me by the hand. I wouldnt know whats going it. I will look deeper into it.
brendaneich @djselery juan DMed me and we chatted about their JS implementation following WebTorrent into Brave -- it could happen. couldn't take the Go impl :wink:
@tranzer if you buy BATs as investor, no KYC -- just send ETH to token contract once launched, get BAT back
dr10 Maybe implementing something like a tutorial when starting brave browser would be nice. I am thinking of people who dont know any of this stuff and are not interested into researching it a whole lot
alexius89 @brendaneich are there partnerships with any exchanges (Bittrex, Bitshares etc.) planned or already confirmed after the crowdfund has ended?
geezee @brendaneich you should accept ARK :smile: :smile:
brendaneich @tranzer if you are a user of Brave after we launch BAT and have it integrated, and want to opt into ads, no KYC at first but the funds (to which you will have multisig custody, similar to bitcoin setup with BitGo wallet today in Brave for donations) flow in API-keyed and browser-automated fashion toward the accounting server that settles donations behind the anonize barrier
@tranzer if you want to send BATs from your wallet to other destinations then KYC needed
@dr10 go to Preferences / Payments; the Coinbase buy widget integration is US-only and a bit much for average users, wherefore our Stripe partnership
if you have BTC already, you can just fund your wallet and start
we have pinning (Patreon in the browser) in 0.15.2 now
so you can support sites with x% of your monthly budget whether you browse there or not
dr10 Will I earn more then I pay, when I chose to accept to watch these ads?
brendaneich @dr10 you don't have to pay at all, you can just earn
both donations (currently and in future) and ads (still to come, after BAT launch) are opt-in and separate
dr10 so basically what you say... the average dude can earn money just by browsing? It will be of couse small amounts, but better then nothing
fixcrypt @brendaneich on a business model side, is Brave team earning directly from this (ie part of the revenue redirected to the team for further development)?
tranzer Will bat have finitive coins and nothing added after few years or is there some subsection where you can increase token numbers via smart contract in the future ?
brendaneich @fixcrypt we are selling 70% and 30% floats on side. 10% is user growth pool. remaining 20% is reserves for team, bat.org (shorthand for basicattentiontoken.org; also have attentiontoken.org, attentioneconomics.org) and poss. user growth reserve
dr10 what if nobody choses to donate to pay money to the ad-publishers/BAT. doesnt the concept break down? I mean many people just want to earn. They watch these ads and get money.
brendaneich @fixcrypt biz model for Brave is not fundraising, though -- that's mostly burned down as non-recurring engineering, marketing (ads and growth hacking), etc.
biz model is small percentage (currently 5%) of automicrodonation gross, and larger (maybe 15%) off gross ad spend
these will be public numbers, we want transparency
if we do user-private ads, 85% of rev could go to user
part of Brave's brand is a set of promises: your data only on your devices in clear; we don't track, or store cleartext; rev share to you for opt-in ads at least as our share.
fixcrypt @brendaneich i see some maintenance with regular upgrades from chrome and advertisers relationship, so it needs a regular funding from transations i agree.
brendaneich @dr10 if everyone free-rides then system collapses; note this is risk today on Web, without Brave (which is small-share browser)
on Web today you can use a strong ad blocker like Brave, or Chrome+uBO+Disconnect.me
fixcrypt also will the revenue from donations will be contractual on the blockchain?
cannabanana do you have a contingency plan in case of critical ETH failure in the future?
brendaneich @tranzer contract is super-simple, we are making 1e9 BATs, no plans for more. can subdivide, expect appreciation but then use mostly as medium of exchange and unit of account, not store of value. don't want everyone hoarding. as with real world economies if everyone saved the system would collapse
michaelthecryptoguy for example the double spend issue like bitcoin had
dr10 What are your arguments for people donating for ads/keeping the money circulated. Why shouldn't they just cash-out their money?
Can you tell me an example of how much I would earn by browsing an hour? What is it depending on? Is there a good example to tell to people?
tranzer How are you going to counter exchange BAT price fluctuations? We all know tokens are highly volatile can go up 200% in a day or fall 50% in a day. How will you determine how much is someone paid ? Will you use USD value at time of contract with publisher / advertiser?
cannabanana @brendaneich wouldn't it be better to have a better distribution of BAT tokens during the ICO? currently in our environment with ICOs which have been selling out instantly is that there are like 10 whale ETH investors who get all the coins and hoard leaving out like 99.5% of the people who would have invested. (edited)
dr10 Dont know if I missed it. How much BAT will I get for 1 ETH?
fixcrypt @tranzer agree volatility is something advertisers don’t like (edited)
brendaneich @fixcrypt good q about transactional on blockchain, we do it all on bitcoin blockchain currently. we want transparency
have i mentioned ad tech is full of non-transparency, price gouging, etc.?
see
http://digiday.com/marketing/proverbial-black-box-open-exchange-auctions-transparency-problem/ Digiday ‘A proverbial black box’: Open-exchange auctions have a transparency problem - Digiday Demand-side platforms are unclear about how supply-side platforms charge their publisher partners, and they can't tell if a bid price is inflated. (199kB) Yesterday at 6:00 AM
@dr10 we haven't pinned the ratio and won't till close to launch date in view of ETH volatility
we are raising $15M equiv
dr10 tranzers question is good
like to know that too
brendaneich @cannabanana global war, giant meteor impact, etc. -- "exiguous circumstances" -- leave us with no good alternative, i mean this in deep civilizational sense. BAT launch will be least of our concerns. Short of these, the risk to Ethereum is low. could have primal flaw in design exposed. would have to rebase on another blockchain -- would be hard, tons of risk
catching up...
cannabanana do you guys even believe in blockchain?
tranzer Rebase to Ark :trollbounce:
cannabanana ok, nm.
brendaneich @tranzer can't volatility hedge yet (gamma hedge) as far as i know -- anyone know diff?
@cannabanana i believe in blockchain -- as with standards, the great thing about blockchains is there are so many :stuck_out_tongue:
@cannabanana we see no whalesign in GNT; if you mean GNO, see above. they sold too little
cannabanana well I also believe but not in ETH so you are basically only allowing ETH believers to partake in your project
michaelthecryptoguy Wow!! You are doing great @ brendaneich :goodjob: In the dedication and effort department! ::ghostfaceuk_node: (edited)
mward @cannabanana you can simply exchange btc to eth for ico. After ico ends and you have tokens, sell them for profit :trollbounce:
cannabanana and many projects recently "sold out" within minutes by 2m equivalent single transactions
@mward I wont ever buy any eth ever
brendaneich @cannabanana we are not religious about it, as noted above: tokens on Ethereum are proven tech (still young, mistakes and latent bugs, risk for sure but less than alternative token/smart-contract platforms). we are using Ethereum for smart contract based tokens and that's it
cannabanana that's not the point
you still must believe in it if you are only accepting eth
brendaneich @cannabanana did you actually check "many projects" to prove whalesign? we looked at some and aside from GNO couldn't find it
cannabanana :slightly_smiling_face: g/l
brendaneich @cannabanana we believe stuff, yes; have to believe to get up in morning, do anything
cannabanana i've been following altcoins since 2013
yes, i've seen them sell out in minutes
brendaneich but we are not Ethereum true believers in some zealot sense
cannabanana then why not accept bitcoin for the ICO
because of hte risk you said.
brendaneich i will say ETH price rise is scary; but EEA (JP Morgan -- federal reserve founder!) backing Ethereum is huge
mike i had a very bad experience with HEAT using Ethereum, still have to pursue it to track it down - time consuming so have put it off. Used an online wallet, jaxx, i think, since installing and waiting days for blockchain was a lot more than i wanted to deal with. Maybe there are better alternatives now.
cannabanana sorry man, didnt mean to hijack your ama
brendaneich @cannabanana accept bitcoin how?
hardcode a bitcoin address in the token contract?
Zooko's XCAT scheme?
it's cool but no thanks
K.I.S.S. rules
we will not multiply risk (odds ratios) of independent events
that's a good way to die
cannabanana wow you are a jerkoff man
I just wanted to invest in your project
but wont touch eth
brendaneich i was at a startup before Netscape (MicroUnity), talked to Jim Clark when I got to Netscape. said "we were doing ten hard things at once that all had to work for success" and Clark said "odds were 1e-10!"
cannabanana good god, good for you man
1nfinite way to be respectful @cannabanana - just because of some feud you have with ETH, too
brendaneich @cannabanana i'm not the one calling names here
techbytes let's not digress... stay on topic please
brendaneich i do like XCAT, check it out. cross chain atomic transactions
1nfinite thanks for the transparency here and taking the time to answer our questions @brendaneich
brendaneich np
i think i'm over time
did i miss anyone's q?
dr10 dr10 What are your arguments for people donating for ads/keeping the money circulated. Why shouldn't they just cash-out their money?
Can you tell me an example of how much I would earn by browsing an hour? What is it depending on? Is there a good example to tell to people?
brendaneich @dr10 thanks
dr10 np :smile:
tranzer Thanks brendan for answering all of my questions - good luck with the project I'll be sure to participate
brendaneich if people see ads and cash out, the ad business is working and perhaps it dominates
moobox thank you for answering my questions also
brendaneich today's web relies mostly on ads, few paywalls and they convert poorly
i have a feeling with automatic, anonymous microdonations and payments we will see more of that and less reliance on ads
but cannot count ads out, for sure
mike any chance of eliminating the KYC so people can just withdraw their BAT and trade it?
brendaneich @dr10 comScore had a figure of 100 page views per user per day
devin Bitcoin is to slow
mike i don't see where kyc adds any value for the users.
tranzer @mike you won't need KYC if you are just going to trade as far as I got this (edited)
brendaneich assume we partner on one ad per page (just for easy math; i don't like this model and think user-private ad channel with one ad per
day might be much better)
100 ad impressions per day, 3000/month, if $3CPM that is $9/month
twitchard Is there some way/what do you think would be the best way for developers interested in advancing your mission to contribute?
brendaneich if we put the ads in user private channel and share 85% to user, that is $7.65/month to user
$3CPM is low figure
dr10 CPM means?
mike like the idea very much over all.
noslawxtrafries cost per impression I believe
brendaneich it's an ad cost model: Cost Per Mille (Mille from Latin for 1000 impressions)
video ads pay more; not just CPM but CPX for X = watch a video by quartiles; watch to end; click on download promotion after end (usually game ad)
mike so KYC is just to withdraw to fiat, but to withdraw to an exchange or another wallet is unrestricted?
brendaneich @devin yes, bitcoin too slow; no privacy either (edited)
devin Screw bitcoin
I want a project that accepts both
brendaneich @mike KYC is required or fraud kills the system faster than regulators (who will kill it too) (edited)
@devin there are projects doing this but they are "upstream" of ours
dr10 What are your 3 major arguments for mass adoption of Brave Browser. - Some Slogan you would give to magazines, etc.
brendaneich Fast (3-7x, see next link), Private, and you get paid for your attention
but remember we want the 501c6 trade association if we sell out. BAT is for multiple apps
mike have you looked at Blockstack for ID as an alternative to KYC?
brendaneich more than Brave
@mike yes (I know founders and saw them recently); that doesn't help
dr10 yeah but Brave will be the flagship of BAT token, right? Or any other big vision planned? (edited)
brendaneich @dr10 Brave will be first, yes
eventually everything here should be a standard
nothing's proprietary
twitchard Could BAT be implemented as a plugin/extension to other browsers? (Would it be more practical to fork?) (edited)
dr10 good question
mike or is KYC just needed for a threshold to withdraw above. it does seem there would be a pratical limit of how much organic ad traffic a user would be exposed to.
brendaneich blockchain, ZKP, even functional specs for KYC, definitely payments -- all should be standards used by lots of apps and services and people
@mike please find "rate" and "flow" above
ryano Dpos is probably the best consensus approach for things like this
devin @brendaneich thanks
brendaneich @twitchard BAT in extension is unclear as extensions have limited APIs, and often must be loaded from a store that has rules
kik got thrown out of iOS app store for doing its own payments some years back
CWS kicked out Ad Nauseum
mike i can see where someting is needed to mitigate clickfarms in low wage regions.
brendaneich i'm half hour overtime so have to go soon
@mike yes, and sybil attacks to route funds to a mule
stuff like that
ryano Thanks for your time Brendan
twitchard Thank you
brendaneich np, it was fun (except for the jerkoff thing :-/)
tranzer Thanks good luck
dr10 thank you very much
ryano Let me guess canna ?
cannabanana lol
man I asked a legit question and got shit on
so fuck it
jakethepanda Hi everyone. As Brendan mentioned, he will be wrapping up the AMA. @brendaneich Thank you for your time.
1nfinite thanks @brendaneich , learned a lot just from the terminology you've been using. Will spend time looking into all this, but your project sounds great
ryano Still dude, it's not good if you are predictably the one causing trouble
brendaneich @dr10 here's the "Fast" money shot
cannabanana well some people can't all be agreeable
brendaneich uploaded this image: Pasted image at 2017-05-09, 10:33 AM Add Comment
ryano You are the only one where this is an ongoing issue
It's bad for our community
cannabanana no, it's not. it's good because I give a different perspective on things. I'm not like you and I don't agree.
you think the success of ark has been on the backs of all the "good" ones?
brendaneich @cannabanana us taking ETH and me giving the reasons why we won't multiply risk is not me shitting on you -- we will have to just miss out on you this time. i wish we could take multiple currencies but it's an exchange problem at this point. maybe XCATs help in future
cannabanana I asked a legit question about what if it fails. what about hte investors?
is that not a legit question?
1nfinite WHAT ABOUT CONSUMERS????
cannabanana if you want me to put money in, I want to put in something I believe in
not something I dont
mike yes, if they want to stick with ETH, it's their call. Obviously plenty of ICOs have been successful with it, so it will continue in the future.
cannabanana consumers too, it's the same thing if it fails then the system is gone then the peopel who bought the bat to use are all out too.
brendaneich @cannabanana that's (
https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C41QFMCKH/p1494351381880292) fair and it means in a market, sometimes you don't make a deal -- you hold out for better product later (edited)
calling names and getting mad because someone won't do what you demand -- not fair. my 2 cents anyway
ryano You can't be calling guests jerk offs and trolls every time they don't tell you what you want. This is an ongoing issue with you. Nobody else here is lashing out at people except you and there are nearly 2000 people here.
jamiec79 oh lordy...
jamie exits the room quietly cannabanana you know what nm
techbytes @brendaneich appreciate you stopping by today. Will put AMA on Reddit for others to find out more about your project.
brendaneich @techbytes thanks for having me
ryano Thanks Brendan
nt91 Brendan thank you for coming
ominous.shark Yeah, thanks for the AMA! @brendaneich ARK community appreciates it!
mike thanks for taking the time to talk with us about BAT, good luck with it.
michaelthecryptoguy :goodjob: Brendan and :goodluck: with the BAT ICO (edited)
boldninja Thanks @brendaneich - good luck with BAT
brendaneich thanks again
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